I am embarrassed to be an American tonight.

After the fighting between US soldiers that I and a number of Koreans/other foreigners witnessed in front of the Itaewon police station tonight -- I am thoroughly embarrassed.

I know that most of our soldiers are good people. I know that the actions of a few are only that -- the actions of a few. But the image these "soldiers" portrayed is absolutely sickening.

These guy were fighting each other, swearing, screaming and shoving like they were members of rival gangs -- not members of the same fighting force.

They weren't the respectable MP-types. They weren't officers. They weren't the mostly quiet, "minding their own business" types of soldiers that I often see shopping in Itaewon during the day. These guys were thugs. Absolute 100% street thugs, complete with wife-beater T-shirts, gold chains, and Orioles baseball caps (other teams, too)-- loitering between the Itaewon police station, the UN Club, and on their way to the King Club. There were about 12 of them, and yes, I know for certain they were military by what they said. Everyone else knew it, too.

Is this the image our military wants out in the open -- do we want our men to look like 50-cent wannabees? Is this what we want people from other countries to see?

I know it's most certainly not. I almost felt ill when I looked at this group of GI's acting so poorly, and shudder to think what others thought of America to be after seeing how they acted.

Are times getting so tight that we accept such hot-tempered "don't look at me, or I'll kill you" thugs like this into our military?

I know the MP's work hard to try to keep control, and help the military present a positive image, but unfortunately, they were off in another direction at the time. The Korean police looked absolutely useless and dumbfounded as they made frantic calls over their radios.

Where I'm from, these thugs that were fighting don't belong in uniform. They belong in a jail. I don't see how it's possible for them to keep their cool and function in everyday American society -- why should they be allowed to function like that in our military?

I'm now left wondering what percentage of our military people are like these thugs. Is it a growing percentage? I sure hope not.

Sorry, I just had to vent. Please don't take it personally. I know these are just a rotten apples out of the bunch.

Just to broaden the view --- were they between the ages of 18-22?

See. I wasn't a soldier. I went to college. First year at U - GA, and there were certain clubs the freshman and sophomores tended to go to and certain ones the upper classmen would. There were also dorms that basically broke down into classes as well. I lived in the main freshmen dorm, and it was like living in a crackhouse. Trash all over the place, things broken everywhere, even holes kicked in the walls. Fire alarm pulled at least once a month. In the lower classmen clubs, the chances of seeing at least one fight break out on a thurs, fri, or sat night were excellent.

Also, if you stood out in front of those clubs and watched the young men and women come in and out ----- respect for our species (or at least Americans) would not go higher in your mind...

That's the kind of thing that comes to my mind when trying to get a handle on stories like this concerning GIs. What in my own background does it sound familiar to?

I'm sure we will hear more of this one. I know for sure that a higher percentage of misfits in U.S. society have, in the recent past, been recruited into the Army. My personal thoughts are that the re-enlistment and retention of soldiers has not really been sufficient to maintain the desired levels, and recruiters needed to dip into a dirtier pool to get the numbers to be able to say they "Met their goal for the year." You know they have always been there-the ones who were told by a judge, "Enlist or go to jail." But never before as numerous as now. It has become a significant problem.
I'm sure the idea was to give them a chance to succeed, and relieve the wonderful overworked and underpaid soldiers who have already served in battle, some, more sandbox tours than we ever planned. That is failing.
Additionally, there is an element in American society that has become increasingly influenced by the gang mentality. I call them the baggy pants, cap on sideways gang. Use any name you like. Their kind are not boy scouts or honor roll types. They are rebels. Rebels against authority, generally wanting to be free and get a free ride on welfare. I'm not talking about rappers who rap legitimately for a living. It is the pretenders-the rotten little misfits who want no law and often are involved in the real cause of our problem-recreational and hard drugs. Prohibition didn't work in the 19th century. Drug enforcement isn't working either. It is too ingrained, it is too lucrative for the pimps and dealers and mobsters who have a death grip on the cities. It may be too late. Also, Islam is being taught to these folks in our prisons. We are allowing our country to be destroyed from within. We are embroiled in an exercise in futility, which allows illegal immigrants to take jobs which our misfit children might have taken, if it wasn't more lucrative for them to deal drugs. I will not run for President. I don't envy the job. But if asked, I will serve the next President. (If HE asks! )

Man where did that one thread go about baby sitting......

Nothing is going to change until we are allowed to discipline our children and our Soldiers (could be the same if they are old enough).

The Army has become weak, nothing can happen to a Soldier until a MASSIVE amount of paper work is done and then if that Soldier complains, it can be made to go away, by going to the chaplin, IG or any number of other agencies that are there now to protect the Soldier.

If you correct a Soldier on the way he wears his hat or his pants you will be the one getting a TALKING to because he when to EO and complained that YOU were harrassing him.

My soap box is now going away.....

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CH-47 SI

They must find it difficult...

Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. --Gerald Massey

A couple of other things popped into my head reflecting on this thread...

I can picture the gang thing as a difference now, but then again, what about the 1950s? It was before my time, but Rebel Without a Cause and Marlon Brando movies....?...

But what came to mind more clearly in relation to scrapping the bottom of the barrel now and it showing a clear difference, I can see that for perhaps the last 2 decades, but if we go back not really too long ago ----- we had a draft...

And that made me think of a couple of my younger uncles and the friends they had from the 60s and 70s.....

These weren't thugs ---- but fine examples to make America proud of its military ----- they were not ------- this was the hippie era and all the other stuff that went with it.............and the one hell raising (not thugish but more playboyish) uncle worked in a missile unit - I believe connected to perhaps nuclear stuff - in Turkey and elsewhere ----- which is scary if you know him. Great guy, but not somebody I'd want to show off as an example of Army pride.

I remember one story about him dropping acid and getting arrested running naked around the base in either Germany or Turkey....

A neighbor of mine was about the same age and he was a MP - and one of the draft-age free spirit types - and he was also connected to protecting missiles or some such, and he talked about guys being sent home from duty for the day or whatever for popping positive ----- like it was a rather routine thing for the Army back then with the drug culture then....

Maybe since the draft came to an end, we have had enough conditioning of an all volunteer armed forces that we have grown to expect better.....but I have a feeling if we cast our gaze a little further back, our perspective might change a bit....

And as I wrote in the first note ----- I also saw the same male age group out in college acting like a bunch of losers once they were away from home for the first time ----- but in college --- and coming from college-educated parents and so on --- not the bottom of the barrel.

In fact, I was from the lower end of the economic ladder than most of my college friends, but I can think of a few times I would not have been very impressive as an example of our species when I was a young and drunk college student.....

Yes, I would have placed these guys around 19 to 21 in age.

I might add, that as you would expect, some of these baggy-pants, cap-on-sideways types (you hit the nail on the head) were trying their best to control the bad eggs they were with. Their dress, although not the way I would dress, doesn't bother me. It's the image associated with it that does.

I'm sorry to hear that even our military has become so hamstringed as far as discipline is concerned.

Because of discipline facts like this, I can only sit and wonder, "Is this the beginning of the end of American society being #1?"

Like the Romans, I feel we are collapsing from within.

I guess I was more angered than usual by this event, because of this story I saw on CNN yesterday. I actually have a Korean friend teaching Math in that same district, and now I'm very worried about her:

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?se...cal&id=5062501

The attackers got off with NO jail time, other than immediately after the assault.

The standards of getting into the Army has fallen. We will continue to see stories like this as the standards remain low. Hopefully, with the troop reduction in South Korea, they will bring only older and more experienced soldiers.

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I would love to agree with you Mike, but I feel that Korea will always be first termer assignment. Throw in a few older 2nd and 3rd termers here and there maybe....

I can say right now that for my MOS I have not seen a seasoned person PCS here in well over a year. Since I came here in July 2005 only 3 (me being 1 of the 3) have had experience.

I can only hope it changes....

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CH-47 SI

They must find it difficult...

Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. --Gerald Massey

Not being military again - I did hear one idea that might have some impact in this area in Korea ---- the idea was that as part of the restructuring of USFK, instead of individual replacements, they would rotate whole units in and out of Korea. I'm not military, but I would think that at least one possible advantages of such a system is that you would have more unit cohesion that would be a positive influence in different ways.

Do we have any old timers here who can talk about the draft days of the 50s, 60s, and 70s and what it was like being in the military during the turbulent times of the civil rights reformation of American society and the sexual revolution and all the other major changes that were taking place at home while the draft was in place?...