Soon, you two can battle in the RPG. They only way to settle a debate is through battle!

Mike

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See why this discussion actually does fit in this thread....?

This started about a movie depicting GIs as a bunch of bastard criminals, right?

How could such a thing happen?

Well, this is part of the reason.

There are plenty of non-Koreans who come here with good hearts and good minds who want to make the absolute best they can out of their experience in another land. They are open minded and friendly. And they are positive type people.

And they are more than willing to swallow the line about the bastard soldiers - even if they happen to be soldiers themselves - and they don't take it as a fictional representation - they take it as basic statement of fact.

Even after eyars of seeing the same thing - even after - as I've said with about the many Korean adults I've taught over the years - even after having had to have noticed some big news murders and other crimes - all handled by the Korean justice system - it is no problem just to simply repeat the common wisdom ----- GIs routinely get away with horrible crimes in Korea, including murder, so you can't really blame the Koreans for being anti-US or anti-USFK and for making movies like that.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of the debate as well....

But, I can't just let it go when I run across it, because people like to throw it around - but saddly enough - they can't back it up or get to the point of admitting perhaps Korea is full of dog doodoo when it comes to the issue of GI crimes.

And it isn't uncommon to find Koreans and non-Koreans falling back away from claims of routinely getting away with murder - either now, in the past, or both - by falling back on a standard line ---- well, I just don't want to hate all Koreans and all things Korean. It's just an opinion.

Well, is it an opinion based on bullshit or with some foundation in fact?

I'm more than ready to believe some GIs somewhere have gotten away with murder, attempted murder, and horrible rapes. In fact, that was what led me this summer to dig even further into the issue, and since the Korean news archives on the net don't go back beyond about 1988, I went to the NY Times and Washington Post.

But, it was like when I first began trying to understand what my different students kept telling me at least once a month about how one reason Koreans didn't like the US was because of bastard GI criminals getting away with murder ----- when I started looking at things - I kept finding more and more to tell me it was BS.

This summer, after years of listening to this stuff and following the issue, I even suprised myself --- by finding that the first GI convictions occured in 1967!! (or 68!!) and for rape.

I also did not find 1 story about a GI being accused of murder or attempted murder or the like and just getting away with it. I'm sure it must have happened at some point, but ------------- given how solid, strong, and very widespread the common wisdom about GI bastard criminals and getting away with even murder (now or in the past) is in Korean society ----

is it really so hardassed to ask somebody to give me just one example I can go by? At least just one case? One mention of a round about year and a murder? Something based on knowledge rather than hearsay?

Is it really such a high hurdle to ask from people who throw out the GI bastard criminal argument?

But, like the icon says --- it is a bust your head against the brick argument.

I had a couple of students over the years who were with me for 6 months or more. Office worker types in their late 20s to mid-30s mostly, who got to listen to the GI criminal debate more than once.

Such a debate came up about once a month as new students would enter and eventually get around to asking me what I thought of the US military being in Korea and that leading to the GI criminal discussion.

And I never brought the topic up. Free talking topics were chosen by the students, and I made a point of not giving my opinion until the last 5 minutes of class, because they students would just copy my opinion and my English if I too much which wasn't good for their learning the language.

And as the months progressed, and as I learned more of the real truth, especially after a couple of big news GI crimes happened, I would have handy press clippings that showed beyond a shadow of doubt that --- yes --- in fact - at least today --- GIs ARE routinely arrested by Koreans, put on trial by Koreans, found guilty by a Korean judge, and sent to a Korean prison.

But, despite the fact a few of this long term students had already seen the articles from the Korean press before, a few of them would still say "GIs NEVER face justice in Korea. They get away with big crimes like murder and just fly away to America." They wouldn't even hedge their bets and say "most" or "some". It was "never". Even after having that fact exposed as a big fat lie on at least one other occasion.........

And if they had not been sitting in a classroom, I'm sure they would have fallen back to the undisputable pseudo-winning position in a discussion ---- "I didn't really want to talk about it in the first place. You're right...... You're right..... I know I brought the topic up and didn't support it, but you're right..............Let's move on......"

AARGGHH!! You just couldn't let it go; had to rub it in? Alright, let's have a little fun...I got some time. But I ain't going to back my stories up with documents, articles, etc....just my personal experiences.

Okay...so what would it take to convince you that a "majority" of crimes committed by Americans are gotten away with? Do they have to be documented in newspaper articles? Eh, forget it...I'm not going to even try to convince you. I'll just share a few things I've seen. Just don't pry into them asking every single detail later on.

I can recall a total of 16 crimes I've eye-witnessed (first hand) an American committing a crime (don't worry, I'm not going to name them all) and "walking free" afterwards.

The first one I'm about to mention is probably the furthest form of "justice" I've seen an American get by Korean law. It was for attempted rape. Well, can you call it rape? The guy was drunk and when the girl refused to makeout with him he started to slap her around and rip off her clothes. Anyway, the Korean police locked him up in a holding cell of a police station...a total of four days. After that...he just walked free. At least that's what he told us. Is that justice for the poor, Korean girl?

Burglary...in 93-94, stores were being burglarized through the nights...estimated up to 30 stores. All the burglars needed a lock cutter & crow bar. One guy was caught once. He did not say word to the Korean police while being held except that he was a kid under SOFA. MP's picked him up from the police station. Well, this son of an LTC spilled his guts to the CID. However, a few hours later...he's at home getting a spanking from his mommy. What happened? From what I observed...nothing at all. He graduated high school a few months later. What about those store owners who lost loads of money?

Assault & Battery; the kind that leave damage. I've seen dozens of these. Our base was like an Embassy...GI's & kids just run for the border and the Korean cops could not follow. "Catch that kid!" scream the police. "You can't come in here, aDUHshee" the MP's say. GI's or kids flick off the Korean cops, hold their crotch, say "Sucka!" ...then they say, "Let's go grab something from the Food Court. I'm hungry." I'm sure many of you witnessed the beer bottle smashing on the heads a few times?

Another (not a direct eye witness, but heard directly from kids that were there)... in 97, the Burger King murder in Itaewon. Those kids killed Cho, Jung Pil...no doubt about it. What happened? They were set free due to lack of evidence. Is that justice for Jung Pil's family? Now you cannot base your opinion on this case by reports...I've seen both these kids in real life. I knew all the chain of friends at Seoul American High School who knew the real story. He did it...and he's free...both of them are free.

Let's look at what I mentioned above in the Korean person's view. Let's say I'm the father of a victim. A GI smashed a bottle on to my son's head. MP's caught the GI and dragged him to the MP Station. Okay, from that point what do I know? Who do I call to see what happens? Maybe, if I'm lucky, the MP's will call the KN cops and notify what happened.

My above statement is what I believe is a key element that drives Koreans to believe "GI's get away with crimes." These crimes do happen, and they've been happening for over 50 years. Oh yes...GI's do get tried...but how often? How often is an MP there to save their a$$ every time? I'd estimate 99% of the time, the MP gets there first or they are lucky enough to have the KN Police call them. The problem is the Koreans never see justice. They just see a guy taken away by the MP's...and that's it. Maybe something really bad does happen to the GI, but do the Koreans see that? Of course not!

Alright, dude...let's just talk simple down to the basics from here on. I don't have the energy to write so much. I'm exhausted! :<>

The topic is (or what I think it is) now "Why Koreans believe Americans get away with crimes all the time", right? Forget the rest...let's stick to the this subject. You wanna know why and here it is.

From what I've witnessed firsthand as well as been a part of, I have not seen one single form of justice whenever a GI or American commits a crime around here. They just get dragged away...and that's the extent of it. Even the ones I've seen get dragged to the KN Police station...go free. If I see this much over the ten years...can you imagine what Korean people have been seeing for the past 50+? Don't you think they even have a tiny enough excuse to feel and think the way they do?

Anyway, that's the reason I understand them. Believe me...over a decade ago, I was worse than you. I always asked why they hate us. Looking back through all those years made me realize why.

The Korean people feel this is just as important to educate as the Japanese occupancy. The Japs claim they tried to help Koreans in their history books.

And, hey...if this is not a good enough "proof" you seek and you plan to pry into every quote I've said and seek all possible hardcore details and specifics...maybe it is you that is stone-headed; not the Koreans.

"The Korean people feel this is just as important to educate as the Japanese occupancy. The Japs claim they tried to help Koreans in their history books."

I feel safe to say I have educted myself about the issue for more than you have or I've uncluttered my thinking about it more than you.

Go back and look where you started and where you have ended up....

I just wish the Koreans would spend the time "educating" themselves about the issue.

Like the Korea Times editor back in 2003 or 2004 who said --- if USFK allows the Koreans to put on trial a GI arrested for a DUI fatality, it would be the "first time" Korea ever got to hold a GI up to Korean justice.

Maybe you think that is justified. A bold faced lie exposing a huge willfull ignoance of the truth - because any newspaper editor for a big outlet would have to have witnessed plenty of examples of GIs getting convicted in Korean court. I sure as hell don't think that is hunkydory ---- just a difference of opinion from myself. It is flat out wrong. I don't care how much understanding somebody wants to extend to Korean society.

Look where you started this topic --

You specifically echoed the Korean charge of getting away with murder.

Now, you have fallen back to street and bar fights -- claiming these crimes happen all the time but 99% of them result in no charges.

First, that is a far cry from where you began the discussion, and a far crime from where Koreans routinely start it ----- "We don't like the US military, because GI criminals can kill Koreans and just get away with it."

Is that view "understandable" from the number of street fights that go unreported?

And I'd really like to hear other people tell me their firsthand experience -- with some details, if you don't mind....Something like, "I saw a guy pick up a bottle and beat the crap out of a Korean in the street and the MPs rescued him and I know he wasn't even charged with a crime."

Because, I've seen in the media and on the blogs plenty of reports of GI crimes that have led to arrests and convictions...

"Our base was like an Embassy...GI's & kids just run for the border and the Korean cops could not follow. "Catch that kid!" scream the police. "You can't come in here, aDUHshee" the MP's say. GI's or kids flick off the Korean cops, hold their crotch, say "Sucka!" ...then they say, "Let's go grab something from the Food Court. I'm hungry."

"...I'm sure many of you witnessed the beer bottle smashing on the heads a few times?"

Hey....other people....what about it? Has this been your firsthand experience too?

GIs and their kids busting heads all over the place and 99% of them protected by the MPs?

I didn't spend much time out and about with GIs. I've seen a good number of reports, usually a spat of them in the news at least once a year, where the GIs were in such street fights with Koreans get arrested and handed over to MPs - brought back on request in the following days - then convincted or pleading guilty.

Are those just the 1%?

I'm sure many more of the readers here have spent a heck of a lot more time in the ville with GIs than I have. What do you think? Really....

Each year, I've seen a clump of such cases reported in the Korean media --- street fights, assault, even theft and drug smuggling -- pick-pocketing or shop lifting or burglary or strong-armed robbery --- and they always involved the GIs being arrested by the Korean police, handed over to the MPs, who then bring the GIs back upon Korean police request for interrogation in the following days, and in all the cases I've been able to track down, the GIs were found guilty or pled guilty in a Korean court of law.

Far crime from getting away with crimes left and right.

Unless these are just the 1% that get reported.

I am willing to be convinced. If the rest of you military people and people who have spent a lot of time around GI hang outs start telling me how you routinely saw assautls and battery and rapes and attempted rapes and burglaries and such that the Korean police tried to handle but were thwarted by USFK authorities, I can be convinced to change my opinion.

And I will stop combatting this frequently thrown out topic when I run across it.

Like I wrote before, I've done digging on my own, and in this process of educating myself, the more I dug, the further away I found myself from swallowing the BS Korean version of ----- "We don't like GIs, because they commit murders and just fly away to America. GI criminals are never brought to justice in Korea."

You are out in the ville. What do you see? Do you also see GIs busting beer bottles on the sides of Korean heads and manhandling Korean women, trying to rape them, and the MPs stepping in to defend these common GI criminals from the Korean police?

What do you guys see. I really want to know.

Another element of this discussion is what happens when Korea-on-Korean crime takes place ---

I've also seen where the Korean social thought on bar girls has led the Korean police to turn a blind eye toward Korean-on-Korean crime.

I've seen a GI get 8 years for strangling a Korean prostitute and then damn near cutting her head off with a knife to hide the crime, and I've had Koreans throw that case in my face as a justification for the "We don't like the US military because GIs can just kill Koreans and never get punished!!"

And the first thing I point out is that, hey, you just showed a perfect example of a GI not getting away with murder.

Then I'll point out that I've seen the same exact sentence given to a Korean murderer of a prostitute, but I don't hear a lot of people saying Korean are a bunch of rapists and murders who can kill at will and never go punished.

On the Burger King murder. There was a special done by a US media outlet some years ago, and this is what I remember from it though the details are fuzzy. I believe the guy the Koreans charged was not a USFK dependant. I remember more clearly the US authorities who did some investigation on the case in the US tried to convince the Korean police to put a USFK dependant on trial who was at the scene - because the US authorities believed he was probably the one who did it. I remember specifically they linked him to gang activity in the US. Anyway, unless I am mistaken, the case wasn't simply dropped, as you said, but he was found not guilty.

Kind of like the Snider murder case where the US military authorities eventually went to the US and along with the FBI got two confessions out of the American student who was the roommate of the dead girl, but the Korean court system threw the confessions out because no member of the Korean prosecution or police were at the interrogations in the US. But.....that was an expat-on-expat crime, so I guess the effort to, at first, pin the murder on a GI (with good reason since Snider pointed a suspicious finger at GIs they had met in the bar before she most likely stomped her roommate to death and a Korean female said she thought she saw a GI looking guy on the hall with what might have been blood on his pants leg), and then followed up on the case to the point of going to the US to question Snide after she left Korea then having her extradited back to Korea after they arrested her.

So, I'll end with a summary of where I stand.

I don't doubt you have seen GIs commit crimes - espeically of the street variety - and not face arrest.

But, that doesn't erase the examples that come up not too infrequently where GIs are held up to Korean justice.

And nothing you have said justifies the claim GIs have routinely gotten away with murder - which is where you began this topic. -- Not even the Burger King murder - because that person did face Korean justice, and the Korean police had more than the full cooperation of the USFK military investigators and also the US justice department back in the kid's hometown area.

And the jury will have to still be out on the 99% claim.

I would really, really like it if some of you other guys who have firsthand stories to tell would come out and let us hear what you have witnessed.

Have you witnessed a lot of GI-on-Korean crime where the US authorities stepped in and prevented justice?

Do 99% of GI criminals just get away with it?

Well......???

Maaaaaaan, I knew you'd end up picking at every single quote of mine and go "See? See? Over here you said___ but there you said___...I've researched and studied better because___________ Right, everyone? Right?!" And then you'd go off with your research to show the world how well educated you are and how hard you studied; trimming every detail just to fit what you have to say. Why are you being such a politician?

Well, looks to me your mind was already preset to not accept anything I said in the first place as I had anticipated. Be honest...assuming I was "right" in any aspect, would you have really said, "Everyone, I admit I am wrong on this. He is right." NO FREAKIN' WAY! People like you never believe they are wrong. There's no convincing you and there never was to begin with. Talk about being "stone-headed", huh?

Be my guest and believe whatever you want because I'll keep believing what I do along with the rest who agree with me. Like I said, this is a no-win debate. Go ahead and view it like you've won and I've lost the debate and gloat/rub it in like you did last time...that's alright because I know a few will see things my way and that's good enough for me. Go ahead and say my comments are ignorant. I can think of a few words in Korean that suit your comments, but don't exist in English. But the best part of this all...who gives a crap what we say and think?

I noticed you're a Moderator to this forum... it's no wonder why there are so many members who are reluctant to post anything here...guys like you drive them away with your know-it-all, smart-a$$, stick-up-the-butt, Malcolm X, preaching, "I did all my research. Where's yours?" attitude and pick at every word they say, adding 100,000 words to it. No wait...that's not fair, I didn't properly research that part...or did I? I have no proof, right? ...or do I? You ever wonder what other members have PM'd to me about you?

But, seriously, you gotta lighten up a bit, dude. Say a few things here and there to amuse people...make us laugh. Don't be such a party pooper. Your mood is always set at Cheerful, but I haven't seen a single post from you that is in any way that expresses happiness...you're always preachin'. It's a bore, man! Live a little...and post some comments that aren't always debates!

Now before I get hit with another 100,000-word response to all this, I just wanna let you know that as I write this I'm not trying to offend or insult you or put you down...I'm just talkin' casually, person-to-person. Yeah, I know there are a few words up there that may be a bit harsh (and I'll apologize for it), but don't take it too hard. Just try to picture us all in a restaurant all drinking soju, having fun together and I'm the loud, drunk guy yelling across the table, "Biyaaatch, get that stick out of your a$$!! Now drink!!"

Now we are going to get personal?
Didn't you bring up the idea that I needed to educate myself on the topic?

[-----well----after reading the last paragraph-----I have a better understanding. I do understand what you mean 100%, so take what comes below in the same light...-----]

I'll take my understanding of the facts fine. I am willing to have my opinion changed, but as I've said, although I've been in this conversation many times before, I usually walk away from it further away from your point of view than when I started. If somebody would come to me with facts and examples and stats and good arguments, it might be different. When they don't, it tends to make me doubt the other side more.

What have you offered? You offered some big claims, but then have beaten me about the head with the idea you don't need facts and examples ---- to make a case -- because it is too boring and the other reasons you gave.

Now, you are chastising me for not accepting your opinion as if you have done a great job laying it all out and anyone who listened would have accepted the wisdom of your position.

And I didn't ask for other people's opinions in a smartassed way. I really want to know what especially the other people who have hung out in GI hangout areas have to say.

You are the one pushing extremes --- 99% of crimes go unreported or have justice blocked by MPs and USFK. Given the number of crimes that are reported and handled by the Korean justice system, that makes a whole hell of a lot of bad crimes going on. But, since I never hung around with soldiers much, I want to know what those guys have to say. A two way debate quickly runs around in circles --- like us.

And gee wilkers -- I thought this was a forum. I didn't now it was a blog or a bulliten board where people put stuff up - with some fairly big claims - then get pissy if someone else comments about it.

Drive people away? Who is the one getting offensive? "smartases, stick-up-thebut" --- oh wait.....I'm discussing what you wrote. Picking it apart. What a bastard I am.

To pick up something else....

"Say a few things here and there to amuse people...make us laugh. Don't be such a party pooper."

What began this thread was a note about a movie Mike thought depicted GIs as nothing but a bunch of rabid criminals.

And your response was to say, well, hey, they earned such a reputation - getting away with everything from traffic offenses to murder.

Ha ha.. Real side splitter, that one.

And my feeling after having had this same kind of coversation with expats before is --- the reason you are willing to accept when Korea is flat out wrong on facts and when they have a very strong opinion on something like GI Crimes but then can't back up what that level of opinion with basic information to support it, ---- is because you want to keep the good vibe alive in Korea.

The best example I saw of it was in France. A couple of hours earlier, at the cafeterria, some French 20 something made an ass of himself especially whenever someone was introduced as an American. Later, I was at a bus stop, and there was a girl who was at the dinner, and she was American, and I said something about that guy, and she said with real emotion, "Yeah. And I've tried so hard to avoid that since so far...."

You had to be there to see how she said it. The guy at the dinner was a butt, but it wasn't that big a deal. There were about 20 people there, and a lot more was going on that dickhead. But, you could see this girl came to France desperate to "make the most of it."

I've seen the same thing with expat teachers. Like when you jumped to my attacking the idea Koreans are justified in the common wisdom about GI Crimes into having to defend the whole of the Korean race.

I have no problem beliving Koreans are stuffed to the gills with BS about GI Crimes - and finding enough in the society to keep me living there for years and studying about it for more - and continuing.

I'm going to write another post now about what I wish people would do with the topic of GI Crimes, so I'm not going to write it here.

And lastly, as for the length of the comments.

I type 60-70 WPM - so as it enters my mind it basically gets put onto the screen...

Alright, alright, dude... sorry, sorry, sorry (really). I, too, type pretty fast and just type whatever is on my mind without thinking. I'll step up and be a man and admit some things got too personal and said a few sarcastic and terrible things, but I'm still sticking with my beliefs as you stick with yours. :p

I guess you and I both are speaking English, but not the same English~hehe. It seems some words like, for example, "educated" and "justice" are defined differently between you and I. As a result, both of us came at each other in different directions (well, that's what I'll assume).

But just FYI, here's how I viewed this whole deal (it's just a summary of my view, so no need to get into it too much):

mike: "There's this movie of GI's committing crimes!"
Me: "Yeah, they make those cuz things like that happened all the time."
You: "Those are some mighty strong claims. I think it's all BS. Can you back it up? Until now, no one ever could."
Me: "I think they do happen and feel Koreans have a right to feel that way."
You: "All the years of research no once could ever convince me and back out of the conversations."
Me: "Okay, you win. I don't wanna get into it."
You: "See what I mean? No one has anything to say in the end."
Me: <sigh...had to rub it in> "Okay, here is why I think so. Enough?"
You: "What you claim doesn't make sense. First you said... then you said...and that's ignorant."
Me: <sigh> "Oh come on! Dude, lighten up! Why you sweatin' for for every single technical detail?... party pooper!"

Hey, I'm not saying this is exactly what went down...just the overall impression I got. Of course, I'm sure you did not mean some things that way as I did not mean somethings in some way.

But what the heck? It was fun while it lasted.