The talk continues to dwell in rhetoric. Show me the numbers.

My dad did his time stint in the army. He was one of the misbehaved. A drill sergeant did try wall-to-wall counseling, but my dad jacked him up. So he ends up in the brig (with his sergeant). So it apparently only works if the so-called counselor has it in him... but I no some bad ass E-1 to E-4s. My dad never learned and was handed his walking papers.

Someone is going to have to prove that there is more disrespect. Maybe the Army is poisoned. We have some real idiots in the Air Force, but the vast majority are hard working, well-meaning (i.e. not perfect) and are goal oriented. That is it was, it is and will be.

__________________
JIMMY JOE

What R.O.K. law??
Is there such a law for Koreans? Would it apply to foreigners? Would anyone bother to enforce it? I don't know.

You are right, we Air Force folk are different. I don't usually talk about it, because it makes the Army guys upset. Our Airmen are generally of a higher caliber. Most of our jobs (not all) require security clearances, and therefore we have fewer people with criminal records or whatever eligible for enlistment.
That's true. But when our "higher potential" people fail, they do it big time!
Reference the Osan Town Patrol Lieutenant, (A Citadel graduate) who thought he could get away with being big and bad, and got kicked out! And two recent enlisted men who abused their Government Credit Cards big time! So when we fall we fall hard. But remember, we are much smaller than the Army, so it follows we have less problems.
My personal opinion, which all are invited to dispute, is that the Army is having such a hard time recruiting folks that paying more money isn't fooling the smart kids who really don't want to carry a gun in the Middle East with the added bonus of being blown apart, and they are not enlisting. It is the kid who may feel he doesn't have many choices-like join the local gang or join the military. His education level and/or criminal record may prevent him from joining the more desirable services, or he may be tempted by the money which he can save, if he lives through the war. So the Army,being larger and less selective, gets a higher percentage of folks who cause problems. My theory doesn't prove anything, some of them excel,and are true patriots. But it might be a reason to explain the increase in problems with the younger folks.

I would concur with the logic. There are exceptions though as you mentioned. The Army requires ground pounders to complete the mission. There has never been a war ended with air power. The shock and awe from Iraq was just that, shock and awe. They still required the Infantry soldier to sweep the country side after the fireworks.

__________________

Chill

What numbers do you want to see? That between the age of 21-26 enlisted get in more trouble drinking? or what? If thats the case then thats easy, no E-6 or below can drive in Korea, unless you get an exception to ploicy. Then you have to send all your paper work to the post Commander.

What and how do you want proof? Back in 88 when i came in you were at parade rest when you were taking to ANYONE who out ranked you. Now it's like "whats up". Disrespect in the Army has gotten completely out of hand, can i prove that on paper? No but i am willing to take you to the PX and sit outside and just point out all the disrespect you ever wanted to see.

The AF does have more technical jobs which does require a higher degree of intellagance. Most of our Soldiers are grunts, they know their job and that is it.

Oh and you know who has the most ACFT in the Military? It's not the AF or Marines or Navy.

ITS THE ARMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have more than all 3 combined!!

__________________
CH-47 SI

They must find it difficult...

Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. --Gerald Massey

You got me on the aircraft! There was a time when I rode Army choppers up to the DMZ every week, supervising the building of the Radar sites there. Those days in the Hueys were the most enjoyable of my career!

I attended the Grand Opening of the New Home of the VFW in Seoul today.
While there, I met an active duty E-7 who has returned recently from the sandbox. He agreed with everything you have told us, and I didn't mention anything about this Forum. He said it is unbelievable how disrespectful (his word) the young troops were, He said most didn't care about their job, and when given a deadline to meet, paid no attention. They shrug their shoulders and say,"So?' He thinks the new policy where they can become NCO's by not testing really sucks. Army, you had better pay attention!

Glad to see i'm not the only one. When "we" speak up it's still our fault.

Anyway, like said above this has been beaten to death and there will never an answer. The old timers and the not so old timer and the new people will continue to complain. Will anything ever happen? I don't think so. The Military is NOT THE MILITARY anymore of USED to be.

A few questions?

For everyone.

How long did it take to become an E-6 when you were in?

Todays answer, as fast as he can. Ever heard of a 4 year E-6? Seen it 5 months ago. Do you think he can take of Soldiers? This Solider i'm talking of said no, but he did his job and their was nothing bad about him, but E-6 in 4 years....Sorry...Do not agree with that.

Would you dare raise your voice to anyone who out ranked you?

See that all the time.

Oh and Mr. Joe I BOW down to The Huey. It is, was and always be the MAN of helicopters!!

__________________
CH-47 SI

They must find it difficult...

Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. --Gerald Massey

I was a E-5 SP5 the second tour of Korea and because I was in a non combat arm MOS promotions were slow I made my SSG at 12 year then I finally was able to get a BNOC slot but that was not until I had reclassed to 13N Lance. I do think that the Air Force has the promotion system correct with the Testing and the way they promote. In the Army it is automatic to E-4 and local board to E-5 & E-6. The promotions are easier in th Infantry, Artillery and Armor as they have trouble keeping people. I do agree that there is a lower quality soldier allowed in. That has more to do with numbers that must be met. I came in at the end of the draft days there were still many who hd been drafted but as they moved on or retired I think the standards dropped.

__________________
Just my humble opinion!

Minimum drink age is 20 y/o in the ROK, according to the EUSA handbook. Probably wouldn't get enforced until some troubled 'brewed' and then fines could be imposed. I picture it as a tourist trap thing.

__________________
BOOM, BOOM. Out goes the Lights

I've completed some of my survey and posted it on at my journal. It is set for public viewing. I need to develop some more ?'s, but this is a start. 3 ?'s are out of place. I think 52-55. If you have a suggestion or think that I've butchered the grammar beyond all hope, include the number of the question. ?'s 50+ wil use a lekert scale (1-5 thing). Let me know what you think. Let me clarify before someone takes offense to the list so far. They're based on discussions throughout this topic. The demographic stuff is long, but it's a general description thing.

__________________
BOOM, BOOM. Out goes the Lights