(REPLY TO PARISOK FROM PAGE 4) if you are confused, Mike altered the system so that my initial thread starter post now appears at the top of EACH page. If it confuses you, or helps you, PM or IM Mike. He believes it is helpful.
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A key point there- counsel and document that you told the new troop what is available, how to get to the education center, and see that he/she signs up for whatever is mandatory. You can then feel good about having done your job by making the person aware of what is needed to get ahead. If the person does not take advantage, for whatever reason, you did your best.
If you have time, and feel motivated, you can do more by encouraging the person to work at it, and go the extra mile it takes to be all that you can be.

No one said it is easy being a supervisor or a soldier. Being both, 24 hours a day is not easy. There are times during a career when it gets easier,
for a while, maybe. Then it gets to be fun-while you are home on leave, wearing that uniform, representing the American Fighting Man! Then it gets hard again, back in a different, heavier uniform with 60 + pounds of gear, fighting for someone else's freedom thousands of miles from home. Lets teach those new troops the best way we know how, despite how frustrated we feel, for we owe them. They are volunteers, too!

Next time I attend the state wild continuing ed conference, I'll bring a copy of your post just so I can see others get bent out of shape

The survey in my case is one that is show a perceived problem and suggested outcomes. Kinda like when the management analyst comes around and does the program evalution thing. We all know that underage drinking has been a continuous & unaddressed problem for many years. Somehow I don't think that the ROK minmum age of 20 y/o is applied equally out in the ville.

Assessment instruments, unlike the one link I found, actual are well crafted devices. None are 100% accurate, but they show a pattern of predictors of certain kinds of behaviors. I believe the Army uses something called SASSI-3 for assessment. I know of one agency that contracted with the local NG to do thier screening and assessment and the DOT requires for thier purpose. The instrument itself does collude on job security, it just keeps a counselor out of the hotseat if they ever are sued over a recommendation by a former client. The judge is basically interested in two things: Was DSM-IV criteria followed and how did you arrive at your conclusion? A good portion of the A&D counselors believe that they are gospel. In reality they jsut serve two purposes, behavioral predictors and justification of diagnosis. I've been to those sessions over the evil of alcohol too! None want to hear anything good and moderation and decrease usage are considered a heresey.

I agree with your point about if a supervisor is doing his/her job. My concern is how many go through the motion of just doing it. If we think about the couple from CP humphreys, the taxi cab incident, the 2ID an others, I would like to see thier monthly counseling statements just to see what exactly was discussed, what actions were to take place and any follow up activity. Then how did then next level supervisor handle any recommendations. I'm think now about the soldier who got the BCD, loss of rank and the year confinement. Was their any point when his supervisor, Platoon SGT or Ldr, 1G or CO dealt with his malconduct be for the AR 15 hearing? Was any outside party involved-shrink, chaplin, etc? Same with the others.

Hats off and a big salute for all supervisors who actually take the time to show concern toward their subordinates! And those who contribute to this topic desires one as well!

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BOOM, BOOM. Out goes the Lights

AR15 use to be a punitive action now it is a career ender. I have seen Many NCO's with several DUI's and DWI's get advanced because basically they were a niice person but nothing was done to address the problem and senior leadership turned a blind eye. now the guy is a E-7 on the E-8 list and he gets pulled over blows under the legal limit but the command now wants to put him out of the service because their focus is now eliminate the problem. He was not helped in either set of circumstances and no one made an attempt to help him at his unit. There is still no mechanism for helping treating and fixing the problem it is either ignor or eliminate the person not fix. That has always been the way and until the command realizes that they are part of the problem it will not change at least in reguard to drugs or alchol. The solution is to genuinly care about the people that work for you. Easy .... Hell no, do you get support when you try to help a fellow NCO or lower enlisted again no but you have to try the problem is no tools to help or limited in the very least. As some of those who are still in will tell you without the chain of command helping there is almost nothing youcan do but try. It is very frustraiting for those who really want to take care of their soldiers who have this problem. Now the ones that are just dirtbags and refuse to be helped then they need to be put out.

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Just my humble opinion!

Sejongeb;

Not to belabor the point, however, these incidents may have been isolated. The problem I have with the system is anyone having more than 1 beer a week is suspect for enrollment in an A&D program. If an individual is involved in a TA where any alchol is involved it is a contributing factor. This applies even if the driver is not at fault. I will not condone drinking an driving; however, there are other contributing factors involved. Any leader does not need to wait until a blotter incident occurs prior to taking action. I am not placing myself above any others; however, I was very proactive in interacting with soldiers on a daily basis. I always spent time talking to them to see if there were any issues I needed to pay attention to. I am sure some of the bloggers here remember the old days of the 2ID syndrome. They humped during the day and partied in the evening. It was a frequent scene where they were making pit stops on the morning runs to upchuck what was left from the night before. The individuals I seen could give a earnest days work and still continue to drive. In those days the worst punishment a soldier could receive was not to receive a pass.

I am not so sure with the current situation that AR15 are career terminators. When they are attempting to downsize they use any excuse to draw down the forces. At one point they were eliminating based on GT scores. They claimed this was an unjust discriminator. I had NCO with 6th grade education levels.

BTW Please take the comment I made concerning job security with you. I am sure they will enjoy it <Bg>

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Chill

I recall a lot of alcohol incidents. Nowadays there are lots more drugs available and perhaps harder to detect. Is it just that it is now considered "Normal" to use "Recreation" drugs? I have no experience with subordinates on other drugs except one admin person, who would sort of lock up at the typewriter and stare into space until someone asked him a question. He told me he had taken drugs in Vietnam, and would have what he called blackouts occasionally ever since. I had an alcoholic once, but he was the best kind. Always sharp on duty, but after 5PM, he drank until 10, then his wife went to the club, scooped him up, and drove him home. He caused me no problems at work. Counseling fell on deaf ears. Later I heard he eventually was kicked out just before retirement eligibility. It is a sad thing how people get hooked; and rehabilitation- what are the latest statistics? I heard 10% may recover?

I'm not sure what you base this statement on, but you've mentioned this twice in this thread.

The vast majority of students at DLI are enlisted. Of course, they are there because their MOS training dictates it. Most of the officers attending DLI are FAOs (foreign area officers).

DLI has a 1-month introductory course (it has a different title - but I can't remember what it is), and most of those attending that are officers. However, that is only offered a few times a year, and in terms of overall numbers, only a tiny percentage of officers reporting to Korea attend that course prior to PCSing. For most, it's just a nice one month vacation out to Monterey, CA - they don't learn very much, and ultimately retain very little of what they were taught. My knowledge is fairly dated - I wouldn't be surprised if this 1-month course got dumped years ago, since everyone knows what it really amounted to, i.e., all-expense paid vacation to Monterey.

Will

I recall several incidents with both drug and alchol related. I do not condemn anyone for using either. I was a radical growing up, however was always fortunate in knowing where the line was drawn. I guess this was my OJT for working with soldiers and identifying problems. Depending on the situation I would always attempt to afford them the opportuinty to seek counseling prior to recommending a command referral. I have seen dangerous incidents where one of the individuals had shown up for work stoned. He had filled up a 5 gal can of diesel and left the valve open. The drainage ditch filled with est 300 gallons of the 1500 gallon tank. This was on a fixed radar site. I had another dirt bag booted out of the aviation section and sent to the motor pool. Upon arriving at the unit I walked in the tool room where he was assigned and found him rolling a joint with the bag laying next to him. He did a little time in CCF (Controlled Confnement Fac) for that one. The funniest one was when I caught some mechs in a POL shed smoking a joint. I had my buddy who was operating the dog school bring in his Narc dog. When he showed up they had finished their business and the one idiot had placed the bag in his pants. When the dog alerted the handler almost lost the leash when the dog lunged forward for the groin <LOL> Yes a lot of war stories over the years.

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Chill

Well I have been retired for almost 12 years. My last overseas tour was Italy.
Every Officer assigned to the remote site I was at went through Italian course at DLI enroute to Italy.
Being at a remote site we delt with the Italian soldiers Daily but when a soldier or even an NCO arrived in country the Intro to Italian got skipped.

My self and 5 other NCO's finally got our Italian trianing It was 2 weeks before I started my out processing. In Germany we had a mandatory 1 week basic German course but A little bit more intense instruction for NCO's, at least the senior ones would have helped as many times the officers were not around to translate.

I do not think the officers get DLI before going to Korea as both times I was there the Katusa that spoke the best English was usually the Commanders driver. That could allso be that it is not as easy to pick up the Korean as it was Italian and German because of the need to learn the charactors. Dang reread this I sound a little bitter. I know it was a matter of money and Officers had to smooze with the locals but it would have made it a little easier with a little more training. Would like to see these kids get something more out of a tour than learn how to order a meal and all the different types of drinks.

PS Wow I do come off as a bitter old soldier I really just want to see a little more for the guys in the trenches. Sorry about sounding all whiney!

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Just my humble opinion!

Things have changed from the old days. Every time I go to Osan and read the base paper that has Article 15's listed, I fine that most of the reasons they are given for you would not have got in trouble when I was in the Air Force. Most people drank, and if the 1Sgt. got called out at night on the weekend, chances were he had a good load on. Now days things that were routine like squadron beer busts no longer exist. I also think the curfew is causing people to get in trouble. They are going to areas where Town Patrols and Courtesy Patrols are not present.

It is obvious most of us are a bunch of old guys talking about today's military using our ancient experience as a reference. I am the worst. What we need is the word from the presently active guys! I'd like to hear from you young troops AND from your NCO's and see what is going on at your particular location. Apparently there are variations by location. Asking around here, I find that the younger NCO's are well aware of problems with the new breed of troops, but most young NCO's are not career oriented, and just want to get out. Some are disgusted by a lack of direction or initiative of the new troops. I would think that command attention should insure that the NCO's who are charged with the welfare of the new guys are actually documenting their counseling and required actions, with feedback from the new guys to the commanders.
I see no reason to believe that any language training or orientation BEFORE coming here is a factor. They are here now, and I believe the opportunities are here. I am guessing all that is needed is insuring that the newbies get the opportunity to get prorperly oriented, before being put in the field and on exercises.