I remember reading some news articles saying that the ROKA had poor discipline because of the Japanese influenced military culture and that contributed to the rampage that left 8 soldiers dead. But many pro-military Koreans fired back, and said the ROKA is still one of the most disciplined forces and that the Korean media is full of dishonest, anti-military journalists.

Which side is telling the truth?

I can only tell you about the guys I worked with. I worked more in the HQ realm.

Some Koreans are excellent soldiers, BUT I found many lack basic discipline. This is mainly do the fact that it is NOT a volunteer military and many do not want to be there. I don't think it has much to do about the Japanese influence.

Here are a few examples.

My first meeting with a Korean was in 2003. It was my first trip to Korea. I walked into an office to use the phone and I met my first Korean military counter-part. What was he doing? Sleeping! I asked him if I could use the phone. He said, "yes" and went back to sleep. :<>

Also, it is not uncommon for the ROK military guys to walk around with no cover on and not salute American officers. This drives me crazy! They walk around all around the base with no cover. Also, I would say 90% of them blow off American officers by not saluting. I have worked with a half dozen militaries and the ROK military is the only one that did this. When I was in Poland their junior enlisted saluted American senior enlisted! I had a friend that was a MSgt and was saluted all the time!

Again, I believe it is due to the non-volunteer part of their military. This is why I am against the draft. If you force people into the military, discipline usually is the first thing to go.

Mike

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Agree...we're talking ROKAF here, but at the operational level it seems like these guys are mostly just good for translating US products rather than contibuting much to the planning process. I'm not sure if the ROKs are required to wear cover outside or not, but I certainly expect my troops to salute ROK officers, and it would be nice to see that consistently reciprocated.

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First, I'd like to say "Welcome to the Forum".

I think we steered a little off the subject. I think QuestionMark's question is leaning toward the abusive nature of the Japanese had on the Koreans long ago and how it left an effect on the Korean military, eventually leading to the rampaging soldier that killed eight, right? (or something like that) Thus, leading to the questions of the media badmouthing the ROK Army; true of false...that sort of thing.

In the sense of Japanese influence, I'd say "yes" that there is/was an effect...

However, the Japanese had an immense effect on many aspects of the Korean ways of living. Schools, the language, business...almost everything is almost identical to the Japanese ways. This is why the Japanese write their part of history as they "helped" Koreans instead of conquering and abusing them. Not knowing the history and just by looking, who can argue? Anyway, that's a different subject. Koreans admit this fact without hesitation (that Japanese influenced their culture too much); therefore, anything they find "wrong" with the society usually leans over toward the blame of Japanese occupation. Your question at hand is a perfect example. The Koreans are saying, "We're doing wrong to our soldiers! Can't you see? This is what the Japs did to us! We followed their ways and now look what happened...a kid went crazy and killed everyone! Change the disciplinary ways in the ROK military!!"

As for Pro-Military...I'd guess it'd be soldiers being soldiers. But I observe that Korean society (again, influenced by Japanese) has a very stong...instinct(?) or belief(?)...of: "If I get hit in the head twice for this by my senior, then I'll have to hit my junior on the head three times for this." By going against the idea of discipline and changing its ways, a soldier would think, "No fair! I had stuff my Sergeant's sock in my mouth for saying that. He should, too! Everyone should!"

Your last question of who's being dishonest (pro-military or media)...wow! That's broad...both sides have their own demons. I wouldn't know where to begin on that. I'm thinking one of our members, shsong21, would have a few nasty things to say about the Korean media, though.

mike, I'm assuming the ROK soldiers you are referring to are KATUSA's...let me tell ya...they're (not all of them, of course) nothing but spoiled, rich kids who had the privilege of going to expensive English Hakwons and had their fathers pull strings and bribes to get them on the cushy US bases where they can sign in their buddies and girlfriends on the weekends and take US & KN holidays off...they are the same rich boys who drive around those import sports cars in Gangnam and have a free ticket into college with their father's connections. So as far as poor discipline on those guys...shoot...it ain't the military, it's their own household. Why so hostile toward them? They give the new meaning to the word two-faced; you would not believe it.

And why they don't salute US officers...okay, I don't know who shot first, but the ROK officers say US soldiers disrespect and not salute them, so they actually order the KATUSA's not to salute back. Hey, just what I heard.

Whew! I didn't realize I wrote so much. Anyway, with all that blabbering, it's not really..."fair"(?) to ask us of the ROK soldiers because most (not all) are KATUSA's (or ones who work with the US) who fit the description of the spoiled, rich boys. I consider those soldiers different from the ones who are stationed up in the mountainside in the middle of no where for 26 months.

Although I posted a response yesterday I have not seen it today? Since I am also new to this Blog I may also be looking in the wrong area.

I have seen several opinons, myths, and misinformation posted concerning the ROK Army and KATUSA's. In the event my previous message was dumped I must re-iterate that the following opinon is based on 30 years experience with Korean culture. I am not professing to being an expert in Asian culture, rather my own personal experiences. I have also spent time in Toykyo as well, albeit no personal experiences with the Japanese military.

The KATUSA program started under General Mc during the Korean war and remains today. There has been several changes in the lifestyles and attitudes of the KATUSA soldiers over the years. I have personally only had one KATUSA who was unqualified to be a KATUSA based on the criteria. He received acceptance into the program through an Uncle who was a ROK Col 0-6. In those days those drafted were there for 36 months. There were always stories that the US Soldiers would perpetuate about the KATUSA soldier. They would consider them stupid since they had some difficult conversing in English OTH the ones propagating these rumors spoke little to no Korean and had no desire to learn. It is the old smug American attitude that seems to permeate our society. Why should we take the time to learn or even repect anothers culture. The majority of the KATUSA's have at least 2 years of college. Several are also college graduates in a various discplines. I had one KATUSA who was a Grad student in English Liturature at Seoul University. His command of the English language was better than most US Soldiers. In the 70's the majority of the KATUSA's also had studied martial arts since they were very young. I had worked with one KATUSA who was one of the best people I ever had the opportunity to work with. This spans more years than I care to admit :-) He was also a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. He was also a very modest individual who never openly acted out his knowledge of the art. He would also freely assist those US Soldiers who were interested in learning. He was also an Electrical Engineer who knew more about the subject than anyone! in our section (Power Generation). He was consdiered to be ignorant since he had some difficulty with English. I learned a lot from him not only the Electrical side, but life in general. He later proved to be the only individual that I recall who was recommended to be fast tracked to becoming a US citizen.

The incident where 8 soldiers were killed by one of their contemporaries occured in Kang Won Do. It is an isolated, mountainious area in Korea. The individual snapped after excessive abuse. There have also been numerous other reports of the soldiers being directed to eat feces by their commander. Although these were extreme cases they are true. I do not believe one can attribute this to the Japanese though. There are some Asian males who have an ego problem. I would attribute this to low self esteem. I have heard and personally experienced some males that were given a little authority and would think they could do whatever they wanted to anyone at anytime. A common comment from those visting Korea was the rude behavior fro some of those males working in customs. In fact while moving thorough security I prefer standing in a line that has twice the number of people wating to be screened by a female before I would move to one that has a male. I know this is labeling all for the actions of few; however, I try to keep mu BP in check. I seldom encounter rude Asian females. I have also seen some complain about the older women who will push you over if you get in their way. This is the culture there.

As far as the saluting issue that was mentioned. I am not sure why this is being permitted. It is instilled in every soldier that they are to salute all officer rank, foreign or domestic. If this is not occuring and the violators are permitted to ignore this regulation then the officer is also in violation for not initating corrective action. This also fosters a breakdown in leadership and morale. Although prior to the 80's severe discipline was very common part of the dail regimen. These tactics were thought to harden the soliders in preparing them for combat. The Asian soldiers could exist on very meager rations in those days. This was part of the hardening process. We had a ROK SF unit who would go on distant runs in the hills. The senior leaders would carry a big stick to encourage them to continue to develop their stamina.

If an individual fails to pop the salute you are required to stop them and take the necessary actions. This could be a simple oversight on one of the individuals and all is required is bringing it to their attention. If the individual is disresectful in the course of the correction then additional steps are required. I believe the former would correct the situation though.

Excellent repy Hiker! The only disagreement I have is with this statement:

Do you honestly expect me to stop 10-20 soldiers a day and correct them? I got blown off by some 90% of the ROK enlisted troops and lower ranking officers every day.

Mike

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Mike;

I know it is a pain in the ass to stop the soldiers and correct the situation; however, as an Officer it is your responsibility to ensure these soldiers are ready for combat as possible. If you allow this to go on you are sending a signal it is okay to allow the discipline slide. I spent 20+ years as an enlisted soldier. I have also taken the time out to correct soldiers ho have failed to salute an officer both foreign and domestic. I always looked at it from the military discipline perspective more than courtesy. I would definetly take the time to ensure the soldiers discpline was in check. If you also share your concern with the COC and peers you will start a trend. I would also ensure the NCO's are involved in the process. They use to have a Courtesy Patrol that walked around ensuring the soldiers were maintaining discipline. The violators discovered they would sometimes be taken to a detention facility awaiting their commander/1SG would pick them up. The installation commanders would send some individuals of various ranks out with serious uniform violations to see who had the courage to stop and correct the situation.

I can gurantee that you will see the numbers of soldiers not saluting decrease almost immediately. They only need someone to point out the reason why the salute is important. Be a trend setter.

Take care.

That was an awesome post, Hiker! With your 30 years of experience in the Korean culture, I say you are a qualified expert and think we can all learn a lot from you.

As for the Japanese influence and Korean peoples' egos and self-esteem, I think you and I are on sort of a similar line of thinking; just trying to determine "Which came first? The chicken or the egg?"

I don't know...it's hard explain in words, but I think it's cool! :) Maybe time will tell. Looking forward to your future postings!

Hiker,

First, thank you for serving your country for such a large part of your life. You have my respect.

Second, I always correct the U.S. enlisted or officers when any of them do not show the proper military courtesy. Honestly, I would love to correct all of the Koreans, but it would do very little if the Korean leadership doesn't care. In my opinion, they don't care! I have a feeling it would just frustrate me if I was correcting 5 Koreans a day for weeks on end.

Your idea of a Courtesy Patrol excellent one and would be a initial solution. Then officers would feel it worth the effort to correct Korean military members.

On a funny note, I was saluted inside one day! After not getting saluted for months, a Korean was running down the hall and saluted me.

That brings up another point. While Korean rarely salute American officers, they salute each other too much. I Have seen enlisted saluting enlisted, captains saluting captains, etc. All of this goes on indoors!

Mike

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Mike;

I sense your frustrations concerning the issue. You mention the Korean soldiers saluting one another. Therfore they are still saluting. I was in Korea for 5 years and I never really noticed the exchange although I since I am no longer in the military I really do not recall observing the exchange. The salute between senior and junior has always been a requirement. The senior will usually be quick to point this out. I am really surprised that General Laporte allows this to occur. He is usually very proactive on discipline military and civilian. You may want to consider piquing interest with an article in ROK Steady or one of the other local publications. If you are in Yongsan you can contact Scott Slaton(?) at the PAO office. You may also consider addressing this in a town hall forum with the Command. This may be the catalyst to restore a disclipline that is the foundation of the soldier. It all starts with the salute.
Someone will listen.