Look, without bashing each other, you can post what you would like.

If you cannot understand that then you need to go somewhere else.

I'm sure rndspringer will respond also...but do a little more resarch than just cut and pasting what you want, is that so hard?

__________________
CH-47 SI

They must find it difficult...

Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. --Gerald Massey

Cutting and pasting is pretty much all anyone has done up until now. The internet is the source of all information anymore. Some sources seem more credible than others based on the source itself...i.e., NYT article vs SwiftboatsforKerry.com...but isn't all the same thing when you really boil it down?

This is why when people start cutting and pasting about how things are in Iraq...I say..."OK....but I was there and witnessed it first hand...and that isn't how it happened..."

Other than first hand, eye-witness accounts...it's hard to say who is telling the truth anymore.

Thank you. That was exactly my point. I was not cutting and pasting nasty negative links, but stating my opinion. Then I seemed to get no personal opinions in return, but only links trying to prove my opinions were wrong when you can't prove an opinion is wrong. You can prove a fact is wrong or not, but I want peoples thoughts, not links. We can all get the same links and info. If we want to state facts and those can be found to be wrong then that's a different matter, but you can probably find just as much fact that proves it as disproves it. If I wanted that kind of information I'd just turn on CNN.

Well, I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out what is cutting and pasting and what is opinion. Some of this has been one sided, but we can let another side rebut if they have the desire.
It all boils down to the lesser of two evils. My opinion-

Frosty asked for opinion. The Housing debacle, as I see it is pretty much as he described. Financially dumb young folks bought into the credit card schemes, where the stupid government let the banks stuff any mailbox with dozens of credit cards, and they were snookered by "No money down"-or just a few thousand, just sign and get a 30 or 40 year baloon payment contract on a house you cannot afford, by a bunch of real estate folks and bankers with absolutely NO morals; folks who KNEW that these houses would probably go into foreclosure, and sold the notes while they were still warm to even more stupid bankers for a discount. I kind of blame the real estate folks and greedy bankers, but some of the blame does belong to dumb people who think they can borrow forever and live beyond their means. I am a strict believer in government NOT being your daddy, but if you don't have any common sense, maybe I'll have to believe in allowing the government to financially educate imbecils for free. But I will never believe in handing out money or food to anyone who can't pass a drug test! Test every person on welfare, kick the druggies out, and then force any able- bodied recipient to give up their welfare check the FIRST time they refuse a job. Any job.
Illegal aliens-sorry-unless they have come here to escape something more severe than poverty, send them back, with criminal penalties if they return.
No Social Security, No Free Medical; we have our own problems, thank you.

Wow.. sleep for a few hours,and you miss a maelstrom!

And they say Gustav's the storm of the century :)

Much ado has been made of opinion, and facts being presented.

So, lest I be accused of not expressing my opinion again, here is -my- opinion on ... opinions! :)

Opinions, are just that... opinions. They're personal. They're determined by any individual's interpretation of facts as they know them.

-However-, opinions, as opinions.. are not -credible- until they have the facts to support them.

I could say that in my opinion, the sky is green.. but that doesn't make it so, nor does it make it a fact. I could say that up is down..but that certainly doesn't make it so.

The proof of an opinion is found in the evidence can support it.

If you cannot support your opinion with evidence to support that opinion, you have a weak argument at best. Having worked in a law office (and I can hear the "ahhh,that explains it" already! :) ), one truth stands- you may have any opinion you wish as to whether your client may be guilty or innocent...but unless you can present enough evidence to convince a jury..your -opinion- matters little. Granted, sometimes evidence may be interpreted incorrectly, but.. still..without it.. a lawyer who stood up in the courtroom and said "This client is innocent because..welll.. -I- believe he is.." would be laughed out of the courtroom.

Even science as we know it recognizes that theory. You create a hypothesis, then you support that hypothesis through -gathered- information.

Our erstwhile frostbyte seems to maintain that I haven't expressed my opinion, just quoted facts. This is an erroneous statement. I -have- indeed expressed my opinion, which just so happens to be different than his. To be exact, I stated that I do not feel Sarah Palin has the experience to be vice-president. I have stated that I don't think she's as well-loved among the Alaskan people as he would maintain she is, and even if she were, such popularity doesn't mean that she has the skills that it would take to be a vice-president, or in the event of presidential tragedy, a president.

I have, however, unlike him, provided *evidence* to support my opinion, and support my disagreement with -his- opinion, I haven't just said "This is what I think.." I've said "This is what I think, this is -why-, and this is where I got the information.. oh,and by the way, here are citations of the -same- ideas I have, so I'm not the only one with that idea.

Those of you who have known me, know well, from my posts in other thread, that while I am quite opinionated, and strong willed, I do not present my opinions without having some basis of support for those opinions. From my childhood, I was taught to constantly question, and justify my opinions with at least some modicum of logic, and I haven't strayed from that practice yet.

I think that's why Chuck, and others who have spoken, have understood why I presented the information I presented in the manner I did. They know me well enough to know that's just how I do it. Perhaps one of the problems with frostbyte is that he doesn't know me well enough to understand that that -is- what I do.

I believe it was Turk who made the comment that research is an essential part of the voting process.. LOL..and while it's scaring me that we're agreeing on so much these days, I am in total and utter agreement with that statement. I think we -all- should research,and share our resources, agreeing or not with one another-in sorting through them all, we could possibly come a bit closer to the truth of the matter.

The citations I have posted, (which admittedly, yes , are many, sorry about that guys) are the basis that I have formulated my opinions on. Without sharing those citations, my opinion would be no more than vapid talk. It's those very citation that are the source and support of my opinion. It is the research that I base my opinions on that sets those opinions aside from just.. to coin a rather crude expression "blowing smoke.. well, you know the rest."

If you wish to question the -credibility- of my source, that's fine. Not all sources -are- as credible as others, and I recognize that. That's why I have tried to, in every case possible, include documentation from sources such as newspapers, etc., rather than solely "internet" sources, and in the cases where I haven't thought the source to be as credible as others, I have notated that as well (i.e. moveon.org.) . As much as one should question opinions, one should -also- question the source of information. It would be absolutely stupid to -not- question sources.

One wonderful thing about the -net- as we know it, however, is that it does allow us access to things such as local sources of information that previously we would -not- have been able to document due to physical limitations. (i.e. If you're not in Alaska, it's hard to get a copy of the Fairbanks newspapers.). An http link to an electronic publication of an existing newspaper,etc, is really no more than the modern equivalent of providing a photocopy of an article in days past, and is no less credible than the paper product you hold in your hand.

Are -any- sources 100% credible? No, most assuredly not. As willy pointed out, the only -100%- credible source of information is eyewitness.. but..then again, and I think even willy has seen and experienced this,and would accept this..you can put two people in the same room, at the same time, and show them the same thing, and they may interpret what they saw differently.

It is, however, -irresponsible- to post opinion in a public forum,as -fact- ,and not be able to at least have some sort of documentation to support that notion, and if one does, then they should be prepared to be questioned on that opinion.

Another small fact about opinions, a fact that frostbyte seems to have overlooked, is that opinons are also open to be challenged, and questioned... and in my opinion, -should- be... especially when those opinions are about something so important as a presidential election. Would you want a doctor to treat your child without running tests, without having the evidence first to support his diagnosis? Would our judicial system survive if we based all our verdicts on -opinion- rather than -supporting evidence-? A hypothesis is only as good as the evidence that can be presented on it's behalf.

And my final postulation about opinions.. is that they can..and should be fluid. Perhaps, this is the ultimate root of the disagreement: I disagree that they can't be proven wrong.Hypotheses are often proven wrong, and often, so can our opinions be. As I said in an earlier paragraph.. I can say that it's my opinion that the sky is green, but a scientist with the appropriate knowledge, and background can easily present facts that would prove that opinion wrong. I think it's not only responsible to present facts that might cast aspersions or question upon opinions, but it's also responsible to be open to those facts, and reshape our opinion as we learn more of any issue.

Our erstwhile frostbyte has in his posts, accused me of being "narrow-minded". Yes, since I have supported my opinions with evidence, I -am-very confident in my own beliefs, I don't think anyone should post without being so. I don't think any of us would waste our time posting something that we really didn't think had any value. True narrow-mindedness comes in saying that opinions -can't- be proven wrong... an opinion, especially an opinion that's stated as fact, can be disproven -with- facts.

-However-.. if you show me -evidence- beyond just saying "well, this is what I think", evidence that I can't counter and disprove, then I'll be more than happy to admit my wrong. If you read a history of my posts, then indeed, you'll find evidence of that.

"Because I said so", however, didn't work with me as a child, and doesn't hold water with me now.

Opinions are fine.. as the old saying goes..they're "like buttholes, everyone has them,and they all stink" :) If, however, you can't support them with fact when I question them -and by the way, anytime anyone posts anything in a public forum, they invite public commentary and questioning -and I can provide evidence that discounts your opinion.. don't expect me to see your point of view.

And above all, don't resort to bashing me to try to force me to see your way of thinking, or as a product of your frustration that I -do- question.

We return you to our regularly scheduled political moments.

Dee :)

While every political election has it's share of mudslinging, it's a part of the game... this election seems to also have a few shining moments of bipartisan "class"..

I thought John McCain's congratulatory ad during the DNC was a very nice touch, and very magnanimous.

Both campaigns seem to have made effort to acknowledge and act in unity in the face of Gustav, both acting to try to provide funds and supplies for those who might be displaced and in need.

And just today, in the wake of reports of Sarah Palin's 17 year old unwed daughter's pregnancy, Obama has come out and very publically stated that families were off-limits, and encouraged people to "back off" on the story.

Nice gestures on all parts.

First, I'll apologize as I may have misunderstood your side, but I still don't know how you completely avoided Sarah's career changes and went strait to her personal life and tried to make every single aspect a negative as a life event and certainly no merit for becoming a VP. So we disagree. The actions we take in life are all part of what builds us into the person we are today. So she was out being a beauty queen. Fine you see no relevance. Probably not, but it got her in front of people and she had to become comfortable speaking and looking pretty which are very important in politics. Oh let's see, she was doing this and Obama was experimenting with drugs. Find a way to say that's a positive thing toward becoming the president of the United States. Both were while they were young, but one is much better than the other.

Here's some proof to back up my opinion.

So her personal life that you liked to downgrade is part of what will give her the appeal that McCain was probably going for. She's a real American Mom. Not just a pretty politician. You think McCain can't relate to middle class Americans, well she certainly can. Everything about her screams Middle Class American. Did they just say Nascar? I especially liked how they noted which was also my opinion that she IS the change Obama claims to be. Her track record has been all about reform and making the hard decisions that he only claims to want, but has not made actions toward. Just empty words IMO from his actions.
Also the timing of his announcement couldn't be better. He completely took the spotlight off Obama's speech that was an amazing speech and everyone was talking about and...now no one seems to care and every speech he's given since is just the same material we've already heard. Where's the rest of it? Seems to be just that. A speech. I'm sure he worked hard at making it appeal to everyone not caring about the fact that he will not be able to make it happen. It sure sounds purdy though don't it. ^_^ McCain had a strategic plan that seems to have worked for the short term and now we'll see if they can pick up some momentum and get back the lead.
Earmarks are another big thing I'd like to see change and they both feel the same about them. It's just a tool they use to make you look bad and hide other things in. One that I know about was a bill that they threw in something completely irrelevant that said something about not being able to build Wind Turbines within like a mile of the coast or something like that. No facts to back it up with at this time, but I previously did look it up. This was a democratic bill that got passed and was all about the energy crisis stuff and how a renewable source would help, but that one little line in it made sure to prevent the ability to put up wind turbines on the island that all the millionaires to off to for vacations even though it would be a great location to put them. Democrats seem to always say one thing, but do another. Always complaining about power and saving the world...look at Gore... Then you hear about how they live and it's as if there is an unlimited supply of whatever they want in life. Why because they can afford to do it and don't care about the issues they talk about. They just know it gets them the vote they are looking for. Where's the action to back up the words. That is what I see Palin bringing to the ticket.

So now you've given your side to why she's not a good choice and I've given my side as to why I disagree and think she's a fine choice. If you'd like multiple sources with even more material I can provide it, but we all know what information is out there. My opinion now has facts to back it up as you like to think is necessary. Our opinions are usually formed by these sources whether we post that source or not.

Is this particular debate done and should we move on to another subject? Just name it and I'll debate any such aspect of politics that differs between republicans and democrats. It will still boil down to the difference of opinion. Pro Choice, Pro Life, Guns good, guns bad, we're not going to convince anyone to change their beliefs, but I do find it interesting to find out WHY people believe a certain way toward all these issues. I think you will find my answers much more non biased than I suspect I will find yours. I am not republican on any issue strictly because it is republican. I have many democratic beliefs as well I think, but I just have my beliefs. If it's republican then fine. If it's democratic then fine. There are some core beliefs that make me vote a certain way, but if those core beliefs happen to not be of concern or if they both believe those core values then it will move down to less important values.

Frostbyte..

Thank you very much for your apology - I'm sure the continuation of your disparaging and condescending remarks toward me in your final paragraph are no indication at all of it's sincerity.

What I think you've missed entirely, and continue to miss, is that while you're focussing on my commentary, my supposed "negativity" on Sarah Palin's "past life" as a beauty queen and a commentator, is that unfortunately, the bulk of her resume is comprised of nothing other than those "past life" experiences. She has little relevant experience in the political arena, and no experience at all in the area of foreign relations. That is the issue in my opinion, her lack of experience, and that issue is what I find the true extreme -negative- , upon her behalf. She may be a stellar PTA member, but I hardly think that qualifies her to make judgement calls on, say..the economy, or imports.

No worries, I can understand why you would try to translate that into an attack, rather than respond to the actual issue.

While it may shock you, I actually agree wholeheartedly that drug use isn't an accomplishment to be proud of.. but.. once more, you might want to check your math. Given that Obama's drug use was in high school, and he graduated in 1979, and Sarah Palin was 1st runner up as Miss Alaska in 1984, I wouldn't say the two events were exactly "contemporary" to one another.

What was Barack Obama doing in 1984, when Ms. Palin was being beauty queen?

Hmm.. well, he graduated from Columbia University in 1983, with a major in Political Science with a specialization in foreign relations.. so that would put him..oh, yes, beginning the first step of his career.. community organization.

Oh,and besides that beauty pageant..she too was working on her college degree.. in journalism.

Let's see.. beauty pageant.. community organization....University of Idaho ..Columbia.. Political Science and Foreign Relations, or Journalism.

Yep, I can definitely see which of those options would be is more beneficial there.

I have to admit however, you have -enlightened- me.

I just never imagined how important "looking pretty" is as a qualification for the vice-presidency, as you maintain.

Wow, how off the mark were those voters when they elected Abraham Lincoln... or George Washington, with those -nasty- wooden teeth? Or John F. Kennedy.. oh,wait, he -was- kind of handsome.

Hmm..wonder if Pamela Anderson is available for President in 2012.

And yes, at this point, I would be -extremely- pleased to say that this debate was -done-, finished, and completed..

And yes, while I'm sure the very words send a shudder through your very being..I'll even say it.. Let's.. "Move On."

But as for continuing to discuss -any- issues with you?

I'll borrow a quote from someone you apparently hold great respect for..in hopes that maybe you'll respect my wishes if I use it.

"Thanks, but no thanks".

Dee :)

How could I possibly leave it there. You say I have missed your point, but you have missed mine. You are completely not mentioning her accomplishments strictly by pretending they never happened and only mentioning her past. She has done great things while mayor and governor which I'm sure you already know, but want to think don't exist.

The pretty com