Iraqi athletes killed for wearing shorts - Page 6

mike · #51 06-06-2006, 02:46 PM

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It's interesting that you point out it was the Taliban who had arrested people for proseltyzing. If anything, it proves my point. That article was from 2001 before the fall of the Taliban government... a government ran by religious zealots.

Wrong. The Christian convert was this year several years after the fall of the Taliban. It was just a few months ago.

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Does this indicate that ALL Islam is like this? No, because you know as well as I do that there are extremes to everything... and the Taliban is the perfect example of Muslim extremism, it is a far cry from the everyday Muslim.

Muslims produce more fanatics than any other religion. 70% of all terrorist organizations are Muslim. These fanatics also cut off heads, cut clitorises off women and suicide bomb people. Care to show me other religions that do that? As a society, Islam is intolerant and why Saudi Arabia is 100% Muslim. You quoted a Saudi official as your source for why Islam is tolerant. What is next? A quote from the CEO of Philip Morris on how smoking is not bad for you?

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Oh, how many Muslims do you know again?

Dozens, you?

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One thing I can tell from your method of 'debate' is that you overload with seemingly damning evidence without giving full context.

What method of debate? Presenting factual information? I present facts and you present a spokesman from the Saudi government. Care to refute that 70% of all terrorist organizations are Muslim?

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You have yet to present evidence that the Saudi Government actively seeks out and kills evangelists. Or even remotely condones it. You have merely asserted this is why Saudi Arabia is '100% Muslim.'
There's no point in discussing this further.

It would take just 2-3 minutes on Google, but I don't need to. Saudi Arabia is 100% Muslim. You tell me that Islam is such a great religion and this is the reason that everyone in Saudi is Muslim. Then you show me a quote from a Saudi official. This is like asking Johnny Cochran if OJ killed Nicole Simpson and taking his word for it. Saudi Arabia is 100% Islam because the government does not allow anyone to bring into the country or promote other religions.

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It's hard to believe that you can't fathom that there was no physical Jewish state in Palestine in modern history until Israel was created by the UN. Who cares if they were there for 600 years prior to the Muslims. When we talk about Palestine belonging to the Palestinians it's because they were the residents of that land prior to the arbitrary manufacturing of Israel as a state in Palestinian lands by the UN.

Well, let's give the Indians back America! Or how about Florida to Spain.

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This is what I mean by half-truths coming from you Mike. You SKEW everything when you talk about politics because you bend things to fit your agenda.

Bob, take a look in the mirror.

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Just as there are extremist Muslims, there are extremists in other religions. These zealots are not representative of the entire populace, but in fact are a small segment of the group. But you interpret their actions as representative of the religion as a whole.

There are 29 terrorist groups that are Muslim. This compares to a single Jewish terrorist group and not a single Christian terrorist group. Which one has more extremists?

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Just as you wouldn't claim that ALL Germans are genocidal because of the actions of the Nazis.

No, but there were many Germans that knew what was going on and did nothing. The "silent" majority. Same thing in Iraq. While most Muslims are not active terrorist, a large percentage support the fanatics with money and shelter. It is much like an Army unit. For every gun shooter there are 4 support personnel.

mike · #52 06-06-2006, 08:12 PM

How about women's rights? Does Islam have that in Saudi Arabia and now Somalia?

I wonder what tolerance the men would show if one of these woman took off their close and exposed, God forbid a naked arm. Probably beaten and maybe even killed.

Bob · #53 06-07-2006, 05:27 PM

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Originally Posted by mike

Wrong. The Christian convert was this year several years after the fall of the Taliban. It was just a few months ago.

Once again, there's a difference between proselytization and apostasy. If I recall correctly, the man was never put to death anyhow. You make it sound like this happens ALL THE TIME.

This death to converts business may be in the books, but how often has it been acted on? Facts? Figures?

You know in Leviticus and Deuteronomy there's lots of things Christians aren't supposed to do but it's not enforced by any but the most stringent of Christian faiths... what does this mean? You figure it out.

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Originally Posted by mike

Muslims produce more fanatics than any other religion. 70% of all terrorist organizations are Muslim. These fanatics also cut off heads, cut clitorises off women and suicide bomb people. Care to show me other religions that do that? As a society, Islam is intolerant and why Saudi Arabia is 100% Muslim. You quoted a Saudi official as your source for why Islam is tolerant. What is next? A quote from the CEO of Philip Morris on how smoking is not bad for you?

Dude. Fanatics of all colors and faiths cut off heads, commit murder, rape children, etc. You're pigeonholing Muslims for some reason... why? As far as cutting off clitorises, that's actually not a Muslim custom.. it's an African one.

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Female Genital Mutilation (FGM), also known as female circumcision, or female genital cutting, has been practiced for several thousand years in almost 30 African and Middle Eastern nations. It is also practiced, to a lesser extent, in parts of Asia. FGM is practiced by Muslims, Christians, Jews and followers of traditional African religions.

This is one of the things I referred to when I said you spoke half-truths.

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Originally Posted by mike

Dozens, you?

And what is your opinion of them? Good hearted regular people with a different religion? or intolerant potentially fanatical terrorists?

None of the Muslim friends I have are remotely terroristic or intolerant as you make them out to be.

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Originally Posted by mike

What method of debate? Presenting factual information? I present facts and you present a spokesman from the Saudi government. Care to refute that 70% of all terrorist organizations are Muslim?

Well, your facts are suspect and look mostly derived from anti-Islamic rhetoric commonly found on Christian websites. Hardly unbiased or even sometimes only remotely truthful.

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Originally Posted by mike

It would take just 2-3 minutes on Google, but I don't need to. Saudi Arabia is 100% Muslim. You tell me that Islam is such a great religion and this is the reason that everyone in Saudi is Muslim. Then you show me a quote from a Saudi official. This is like asking Johnny Cochran if OJ killed Nicole Simpson and taking his word for it. Saudi Arabia is 100% Islam because the government does not allow anyone to bring into the country or promote other religions.

Mike. This is what I'm talking about when you confuse facts with opinion and conjecture. Also, don't put words in my mouth. My original point still stands and I have never said that 'Islam is such a great religion' nor have I ever attempted to make it out to be as such. I said. Islam is not any more intolerant than any other religion, the people who profess to follow that face are the ones that are... and to decry an entire faith based on the actions of a fanatical few is .. well.. silly.

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Originally Posted by mike

Well, let's give the Indians back America! Or how about Florida to Spain.

Mike, don't cloud the issue with atopical bs. I don't think you even remember why this point was made in the first place.

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Originally Posted by mike

Bob, take a look in the mirror.

and? Read the things I've said carefully Mike. You might actually figure out that you can make an argument without usage of ludicrous hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by mike

There are 29 terrorist groups that are Muslim. This compares to a single Jewish terrorist group and not a single Christian terrorist group. Which one has more extremists?

Dude. How many abortion clinics do you know of that have been bombed in the past 10 years. Are those the actions of a tolerant and loving people? Who are responsible? Take a wild guess.

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Originally Posted by mike

No, but there were many Germans that knew what was going on and did nothing. The "silent" majority. Same thing in Iraq. While most Muslims are not active terrorist, a large percentage support the fanatics with money and shelter. It is much like an Army unit. For every gun shooter there are 4 support personnel.

Are you just making supposition here or is this another one of your 'facts'?

I truly don't think you understand the point I was trying to make initially and still now. Joe did, I'm certain, but you are too blinded by this fanatical dislike and vitriol towards Muslims to see that I'm just pointing out the obvious. Like I said, I'm done with this. I can see all the points you're trying to make, but you're just lobbing up Googled 'facts' without any attempt at open mindedness. If you did, you would see what I was talking about more clearly.

mike · #54 06-07-2006, 05:50 PM

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Well, your facts are suspect and look mostly derived from anti-Islamic rhetoric commonly found on Christian websites. Hardly unbiased or even sometimes only remotely truthful.

My sources were the CIA, US State Department, and other official sources. 70% off all terrorists organizations are Muslim came from the State Department. The fact that Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq are exclusively Muslim came from the CIA. Your source was the Saudi government. Which ones are bias?

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Also, don't put words in my mouth. My original point still stands and I have never said that 'Islam is such a great religion' nor have I ever attempted to make it out to be as such.

Oh really? I asked why is Saudi 100% Islam and you replied:

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there is no clear reason why Islam takes such a strong hold in the hearts and minds of those who believe in it... but the presence of Islam in such strong numbers indicate the success of proselytization in those regions.

And with this quote from a Saudi official.

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In a pamphlet provided by the
Saudi Arabian government,“Anyone
in Saudi Arabia is entitled to his
own beliefs and practices. But
Saudi Arabia cannot allow the public
practice of any religion which
contradicts Islam. Saudi Arabia is a
special place; it is the cradle of
Islam and the Prophet Mohamed
declared it a preserve of Islam. A
lot of so-called dissidents want all
non-Muslims thrown out of Saudi
Arabia. But the government takes a
far more moderate stance.”

So, I can only conclude one thing. That since you stated that Islam is not any more intolerant that other religions, that Islam is so awesome that 100% of their citizens choose Islam over all others. For 100% of any people to choose one things, that thing must truly be great. One has to conclude that 100% in Saudi Arabia are Muslim because:

A. Saudi Arabia keeps other religions out or;
B. Islam is so great that even with a choice, every single person in Saudi Arabia choose it.

According to the CIA fact book there are 27,019,731 people in Saudi Arabia and the country is 100% Islam. So, you are telling me that the Saudi government and Islam is not intolerant, so you must be saying that the religion is so great that all 27 million people in Saudi Arabia chose it over all other religions.

mike · #55 06-07-2006, 05:58 PM

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you are too blinded by this fanatical dislike and vitriol towards Muslims to see that I'm just pointing out the obvious.

Bob, this is how you have been posting all along. You generalize me. What if I told you my brother was a Muslim? Or I was Muslim? You once again made a statement from the hip with little research.

Fanatical dislike? Because I call a religion intolerant? Because I don't like Saudi Arabia forcing a religion on people? Because I don't like whole nations keeping their women in the stone age? I'm an atheist and can look at religion from the outside. I call a spade a spade.

I appreciate the generalizations. Typically when people start deflecting attention from the argument and generalizing the opposing debater, it is the sign of defeat in a debate.

mike · #56 06-07-2006, 06:04 PM

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Fanatics of all colors and faiths cut off heads

Do a video search of "beheading" and let me know how many non-Muslim videos there are. Try Ogrish.com.

mike · #57 06-07-2006, 06:09 PM

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Dude. How many abortion clinics do you know of that have been bombed in the past 10 years. Are those the actions of a tolerant and loving people? Who are responsible? Take a wild guess.

How many are actually organizations on terrorist watch lists? Should we compare the numbers of deaths from abortion clinics to the deaths from Muslim terrorists? I'd be happy to do so. When someone bombs an abortion clinic they typically act alone without funding and support from major Christian organizations. This is not the same when a Muslim bombs a bus in Israel.

mike · #58 06-07-2006, 06:32 PM

I wonder if this lady has a "fanatical dislike and vitriol towards Muslims"

http://muslim-refusenik.com/

She is one of the biggest promoters of the intolerance of Islam. And yes, she is a Muslim and talks about the same points I have in her book. You may have seen her on TV.

Doutdes · #59 06-07-2006, 11:47 PM

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Originally Posted by mike

Doutes, you are reading my responses aren't you? You are making my SAME point. It is silly for anyone to say, "that land was mine because my people lived there." Please go back in read my posts about how silly it would be for the Spanish to claim Florida or Mexico to claim Texas. My basic is when some says, "Muslims were here first and Israel stole our land," is a silly. So, go back and read my posts and you will see we are on the same wavelength.

Mike, I know understand why I was confused as to what you were saying. We aren't making the same point. I can see by your comments that you think Palestinian claims to land, whether annexed in 1948 or since the construction of the security wall (2002), have the same merits as Mexico's claim to California (150 years ago). I asked before when things became historical, but you never eluciated your position. I understand it's difficult to determine when something is a historical claim versus current issue of control. A simple index of years or days probably wouldn't suffice and I assume a continuing conflict (such as in Palestine) would influence when a claim becomes "historical."

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