"And this is probably one of the primary influences on why these outside news agencies coming in focus more on the foreign prostitutes. It is easier for both them and the Korean government to say such women are exploited "just for" the US military, even though it is the Korean government that has all the power. They issue the visas and they have the authority to investigate, arrest, and put on trial both the prostitutes and the Korean owners and managers of the bars. USFK cannot.[/quote]"
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I can only address what was in the media articles pointed to in the template 2 link. If that was an influence for them, then they neglected to bring it up in their text.
The point of the articles wasn't to single out Americas as the primary customers of prostitution in Korea. It looked to be something completely different - whether the US is taking human trafficking seriously enough and might be enabling it by patronizing businesses in Korea that do it. The media was correct to bring that to our awareness and didn't disparage Americans in any way. If the Fox article singled out Americans as the primary customers for prostitution, then i missed it. The issues need to be kept separated.

The link to Gen La Porte's comments indicates the media attention was understood well enough to do alot of good because it helped us become aware enough to make sure we we aren't on the wrong side of the human trafficking issue. We are always a better country for it, when we are fully aware of the same truths the locals are (which did Not include this other issue).

When the issue is about the Koreans giving unfair coverage about Americans catering to prostitution over there, then that truth can be made clear too. But I can tell you that the media here would give no credence to claims like that and you'd be hard pressed to find a reputable source that would make that an issue. The only place you'd likely see that would be over there or in very obscure periodicals with small readership (the weight of which should be considered when using them to broadbrush the rest of the media).

Again, what will get media coverage in the states is when there is something Americans might be connected with that goes way beyond the norm of simply catering to prostitutes (which is widely accepted and destined to only be mentioned in passing). Human trafficking is a more serious issue that is separate from the prostitution issues being raised here. While the military has no legal authority there, they are more than capable of closing a business catering to Americans by simply putting it off limits (and ending that issue). Thats what Gen LaPorte was saying too.

(The anonymous claim of what was overheard in the first post sounds very dubious and impractical. They wouldn't need a photo for an article, but could easily manufacture something suitable if they wanted one.)

Is the pricing in this graphic accurate today? That should be an effective deterrant for prostitution! Reading around this subject was interesting because of all the changes there from when i was last there in '74 (where that graphic would have said 5 and $10 respectivley). One site of interest that led to more info was Mojos - WTF are bikers doing there - are these expat vets? TDC is populated by Muslims and Russians?

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"There is a small trend in academia and intellectual circles in the US, within the much bigger movement of Feminism, that deals with prostitution, the military, and male-ness as a whole. Aggression, degradation, domination, gorilla mentality, and so on. To cut this short, it goes along in general with something we all might have heard before: that "if only women were president, we wouldn't see all these wars and such"."
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Is there some sensitivity about the complaints of the feminists?
I haven't seen any Koreans speaking on the subject of prostitution yet but wont doubt anything since i've heard the same stories before regarding the US in the Philippines, from those who were campaigning for us to leave there. Any feminist group in existance would write about the towns outside the bases there, because of their world class noteriety. But every one of those groups must have been frustrated and disapointed because it all came to naught. They did manage to make life a little better for the women there and thats not a bad thing when there is less for them to complain
about. In fact, if you look at their site, Korea is not on their radar screens, while many other places are.

The filipino's campaigning went on for decades and they'd be encouraged by public comments from the US that gave the impression we might leave. But in reality, the US was pouring $Millions more dollars into the bases to upgrade the family housing onbase and to build more entertainment facilities - they had just completed a new high school complex at Clark - thats something you dont do if there is a serious contingency to leave. The only thing that could dislodge us was a volcano eruption that was conveniently located between the two largest military installations overseas (which led them to believe it was an act of God). Barring a war or volcano eruption, I'd venture to bet the base expansion and new swimming pool construction at that main base in Korea, means we wont see the troops leaving there for a long time, no matter what else you hear.

You would be effectively helping the Feminists agenda if you misrepresent the message of the media articles by attributing the feminist's message to them, making it look like they are supporting the feminists, when they're not. The feminists were the only ones that implied the US bears responsibility for prostitution in Korea when that wasn't the media's message at all. Reading that into it is one thing but its not fair to put words into other people's mouths. Someone else hears that and will believe the media actually said it. (Accuracy is important ot the truth suffers.)

Heres the crux of the "prostitution" article that you used, ... except it was really about human trafficking.

"Although no charges have been filed against Americans, the case and others like it raise tough questions for the military. The clubs are owned by Koreans, and the recruiters are usually Koreans, or sometimes Filipinos and Russians. The customers are primarily Americans. By merely allowing soldiers to patronize such clubs, some say, the U.S. military is condoning not only prostitution but, perhaps more seriously, the trafficking of women and minors."

("Some" in this case would be anyone responsibly minded, like the commanding US general in Korea - one follow up is in order)

"These clubs understand the law of the market. If the soldiers didn't go to clubs with these kinds of practices, it would contribute to the eradication of trafficking," said Reydelus Conferido, the labor attache at the Philippine Embassy.
In the wake of news reports on the women's treatment, U.S. commanders in South Korea say they are beginning to educate themselves and their soldiers.

You understand how the americans hold market leverage over the business there, even though they have no legal authority. Money talks the loudest. If prostitution were really a problem, then they could eradicate that too - but there isn't any serious discussion about that because it IS condoned, whether some Koreans like it or not.

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"You can see this by how they go out of their way to avoid looking at how native males in less developed nations use prostitutes or how they use prostitutes."

And this is probably one of the primary influences on why these outside news agencies coming in focus more on the foreign prostitutes. It is easier for both them and the Korean government to say such women are exploited "just for" the US military, even though it is the Korean government that has all the power. They issue the visas and they have the authority to investigate, arrest, and put on trial both the prostitutes and the Korean owners and managers of the bars. USFK cannot.[/quote]"
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People can write in anything they want, but will they be credible? I say no. You should link in an unfair Korean article sometime. If some Koreans are being unfair in any articles that do appear, you have to ask how credible it will be to the other Koreans, when they know the facts too.
But frankly, why worry about the prostitution angle? If Korean owners didn't supply it, then it wouldn't be there - its not a credible complaint anymore and if someone is using it, then tough for them. They wont get anywhere with it, unless religious leaders impose a theocracy.

Maybe you are more sensitive about it because people you have to deal with often believe it?
A heads up for you then in case this group turns their attention to Korea - (just dont say this is a mainstream liberal group - THIS loopy group wants the UN to get involved. None of their examples are true, so its good for giggles.

I guess i'm tuned into the exploitation/trafficking issue more than prostitution and hope the message of those media stories gets the attention it deserves. They only make prostitution by "independent vendors" illegal because the govt cant take in the revenue from it, like they can with a club - so the exploitive prostitution (the worst case) is what exists and not a free agency that would represent true freedom.
I became aware that the whole "business women" scene there was human trafficking at its worst, when only Koreans were the victims. The more i heard, the more i'd dig to see how widespread it was. it truly was a slave operation. The worst operators were the mamasans - some of which were some very dispicable people. I didn't support any of the clubs there with my money.

[quote=usinkorea]We cross posted, so the last comment of mine is actually covering the two comments above the next one in line --- and this comment comes in relation to the last one."
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I'm just learning how to navigate back to the threads.

I should have replied to this one instead of the other (and hope i'm not answering the same post twice?)

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I am highly skeptical about the idea that the US media outlets were trying to do a good deed: that they were searching for the truth about human trafficing in Korea and whether or not the US military was causing it. I think they were trying to make the headlines more banner-worthy - more sensational in order to grab the audience's attention more.
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They looked to be straight in the articles mentioned.
As far as sexy banners goes: I dont know if you can get get Fox News in Korea but this is true with them - the Daily Show likes to play news clips of theirs at times because its funny how they'll be reporting a story related to someone with a tie to a sex club and will play video clips of semi-nude dancers the whole time in the background. So of course theres a banner appeal - but you gotta be fair when judging the content or you'll just be doing what you're critisizing - misrepresenting.
(That said while keeping in mind how the spinners may never say something specifically, yet a poll will show their message got through - many people still believe Saddam was tied with 9-11, down from a clear majority)

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Saying their leaving the focus on the US military because the US has no control over the host nation ---- that the focus is on our house and how we should work hard to keep it in order even if we can't control the host nation -- doesn't work for me."
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Fortunately, it works for the commanding general of USFK and other responsible people who understood the gist of those media articles. The alternative to not making sure we are keeping our house in order will work against us. the military knows that, thankfully.

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"These news items make a reader/viewer think that the problem is squarly with the US military and its GIs. The impression it drives home is that not only can the US military do something to stop it --- the US military is what set it up to begin with. Again, this is irresponsible journalism."
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It would be if that were true - but I believe if we went down the article line by line, it would be hard to show what text was leading that way. (I would make the case that their message wasn't recognized) If you pick up an article and see its by the NYT and have a bias against them then its easier to read things into it that isn't there. This can cause unnecessary frustrations, but they'd only be self inflicted.
Believe me when i say i mostly read what i believe to be biased sources, so i can study them - so its a change when i am defending a Fox article. But thats easy when the charges made aren't there. I also speak from experience how the bias register can be off too - I've been called on the same thing many times and the bias wasn't there when i went to prove it by reading it again. Its funny how you can swear something was there before, but not when you go looking for it.

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"Living in Korea and paying attention to how the process of anti-Americanism works across the society is a grinding, frustrating thing. Trying to combat all the misinformation, hyperbole, frequent down right lies, and such is an impossible task, but it is one that needs to be done as long as we maintain a committment of so many resources (and lives) inside Korea."
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What do you mean by the last... If they are anti-American, does that mean they are anti-you too or just anti-American policies?

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But - when you turn around, and the US media and eventually members of congress jump on board the anti-US groups' bandwagon, without bothering to take a look at the reality on the ground, it is a hard blindsiding to endure.
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You know i'd argue the media articles and the involvement of congress in that issue were not anti-american, nor did they ignore any realities on the ground - and were just misunderstood. .

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I admit the idea that the US side should be doing whatever IS within its power to strike at something as evil as sex-slavery is an attractive idea, but I don't know how workable it is.
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Thats Ok, Gen LaPorte and sucessive commanders will know - the power of the market forces are in the commander's hands. Just one stroke of their pen can put a business out of commission, to end any controvercy and the korean businesses know it. Of course some Koreans wont like losing their ill gotten gains but tough for them if they dont - (who do you care about pleasing?) Let them complain because they'd be on the wrong side of the argument. Some things are universally easy to see.

Haven't seen anything worth commenting on in this thread since the "Warning"
about photos in Itaewon. Maybe it didn't pan out.
Heard a story today about a local soldier who took a new, underage, soldier out drinking recently. The boss took offense at that, and I believe both soldiers will pay dearly. The Military is nothing without discipline. People who can't, or won't, follow orders are not needed in the Army.
I'm tired of hearing about the media and their quest for sensational stories.
Too bad we often seem eager to help them find one.

I don't have the time (or really the inclination) to go through point by point.

I think we are reading the environment from two different perspectives.

Everything I've written about so far has as an overriding emphasis not my own bias, but what I know about Korean society and how things play in Korean society. This is probably a crucial difference for us, and why we are talking pasted each other much of the time. For example, when I talk about the US media and then Congress "jumping on the band-wagon" and how I plays, I mean how it plays in Korean society. I don't mean the US Congress is going things on purpose to damage the US position in Korea or playing anti-USFK games, I mean what they say and do on this issue play into the hands of the anti-US groups and the general attitute in Korea that is highly hypocritical and unreasonable.

I still fault the Fox news coverage (which was done by an affiliate station, not from the front office) for not taking a look at the state of prostitution in Korea in general rather than carrying hidden cameras around to places known as GI hangouts. And the post that started this said a media organization was looking at doing the same thing. I would think a Journalism 101 course would find problems with this.

I also doubt the USFK commander or base commanders can wipe out problems in the ville with the stroke of a pen. They haven't so far. Does that mean they condone it? Cause it to happen? That is the implication of saying the USFK has that kind of easy control.

I don't have time to find the links, but Lost Nomad's blog and another have kept outsiders informed of 2 occasions in the past 6 to 10 months where the businesses of the ville, backed by the city business associations, have gone to war with the base commander over moves he's made to tighten up on underage drinking and I think prostitution.

In the Korean papers today, you can also see the Korean government coming out complaining about the US Congressional report that says South Korea is one of the nations involved in human trafficing. The Korean government said it was discussing ways to respond. This is also something at play in how this prostitution issue works in Korean society in regards to USFK. One of reasons the Korean media hits at USFK ONLY for the foreign sex workers is tied to taking offense at the US government "running Korea's name through the mud" globally with such reports.

Again, I can't go back through these posts and expand point by point. I just say I got to see how this issue plays in Korea for years, and it is hypocritical. The media and education and more fuel it, and it is accepted as correct by the bulk of the society, and it is one of the key issues for the anti-US groups to reach out into mainstream society.

Oh.....on the feminism thing ---- I was talking not about the media, but a small trend in the humanities in academia and the intellectual community. The media simply goes to these experts from time to time to get quotes, but there is a certain intellectual context from which the write (the profs not the reporters).

I was there in 04' when fox did their bit on Hooker Hill (if any one knows where i can get a copy of that I'd love to see it again) But this is nothing new, Fox really skewed the truth about Hooker Hill saying that the girls got medical from USFK and so on and so on.